Max Velocity Tactical



Your Ad Here - Email for Info

You Can Shop At Amazon and Help Support Emergency-Preps.com Without It Costing You One Thin Dime - Click Here to Learn How!

Author Topic: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?  (Read 5735 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ND Martin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
  • Karma: +13/-1
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #75 on: February 02, 2013, 02:59:53 PM »
OK, first of all, where are the gold-standard tests showing that any of this stuff works?  Double-blind longitudinal multi-center studies, with tens of thousands of test subjects in the active arm and the inactive (placebo) arm?  They don't exist, and it's not for lack of interest by big pharma - if CS worked they'd patent a way to make it (buy ABL) and get FDA approval.

That's correct, Doc. Serious, credible studies of CS do not seem to exist. Probably can't get funding.  There have been preliminary studies that demonstrate potential, but I can't find any follow-up studies in Medline or the academic databases other than for topical use and a few studies on CS to minimize contamination in the vaccine-making process.

Conclusion?  Having some simple gear to make colloidal silver solutions (for use as topical antimicrobial and water purification) makes some sense for post-SHTF, especially once the bleach begins to run low.  But CS as a preventative for flu and other disorders seems to be in the realm of belief rather than science.

Offline Amisheggpicker

  • General Access
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1457
  • Karma: +41/-2
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #76 on: February 03, 2013, 07:58:59 AM »
 Flight ER Doc:  I wasn't going to post again, but my husband wants me to clarify a few things you stated
.
To summarize our disagreements, topical is not internal, a patent is not a medical authority, and science is not faith.
 
The reason I have distinguished between Colloidal Silver and SilverSol is this.  Silversol is processed in a way that you do not get the chunks of silver that in the past turn a very very small amount of people blue (through their own misuse)  But for your sake, I call it the same...but my same statements below still apply no matter what you call it.


I never said that topical is the same as internal...most folks understand the difference between the two.  I only posted a few articles showing it's topical use was approved by the FDA because you started out refuting Silversol and it's uses.

I also never said patents are medical authority...I just mentioned that they received a patent and the article that I posted stated what they received a patent for ....and of course science is not faith...

All I ever said was that I use Silversol for a flu prevention.  And posted a few articles on silversol. You really twisted these things into something I did not say...

Our disagreement is this...you don't approve of silversol for internal use because Big Brother hasn't given it a stamp of approval...(which doesn't mean it doesn't work either ) and I use it in spite of that.  I had a couple of folks whom don't even come on this board, read these posts to see if they thought I said these things that you claim I'm saying....because I was all prepared to apologize to you if I did...and suprise ! both of them said that You are twisting this around because you don't approve of Silversol.  

And this is what my husband has told me all along...because he used to be heavily into science...he said that folks get so involved into science that they begin to rely only on science...and that science becomes the end all of end all...and I am in agreeance with him...especially now.... I am not of the mind that the ALL authority rests in the mainstream medical field, the FDA, the EPA, or Big pharma or the next door neighbor..... while those agencies have many good attributes to protect us, I just don't always need their stamp of approval....and I pray to God that we as AMERICANS will always have that freedom.

The irony in this whole debate is this....by making misconclusions on things I did NOT say, you are actually doing the very thing you are accusing me of...that's funny.

NOW, hopefully this is the last I'm going to post on this....my husband only want me to post because my integrity was being violated.  
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 08:02:45 AM by Amisheggpicker »
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.


Offline Flight-ER-Doc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2260
  • Karma: +57/-7
  • Gender: Male
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #77 on: February 05, 2013, 09:15:29 AM »
Sorry, but no.

You posted the information about Silversol, including the patent, the FDA approval, etc as a logical fallicy (appeal to authority, the very thing you complain about with your snipe at "Big Brother").  

And the searches I provided of the FDA database didn't show that the FDA has ever heard of the company, or Silversol.....why is that?

In short, the patent, and the topical uses, have NOTHING AT ALL to do with the way you are using the product.  Comparing the topical uses to internal is the same as saying a baseball bat is just as effective at preventing the flu.  A baseball bat has use, externally.  Internally, not too much evidence exists.  That, btw, is a logical argument called reductio ad absurdum, reducing an argument to a ridiculous case, which disproves absolutes quickly

You use a couple of other logical fallicies, as well.  One is post hoc, ergo propter hoc, that because you are using it and haven't developed an illness the silversol is the cause.  That is logically as valid as the bracelet braided from elephant hair I was given in Africa to protect me from attacks by lion being the reason I haven't been attacked by a lion in Montana or Canada.  Where is the proof that in populations greater than 1, taking the stuff internally has any beneficial effect?  And do we have any proof other than your 'case report' that it is effective in a population of 1?  Case reports, btw, are considered among the weakest kinds of medical evidence.

You make the repeated claim that somehow, based only on the marketing hype of the company that Silversol is not colloidial silver.  This is the logical fallacy of appeal to ignorance (not claiming that you are)....just, where is the proof that it is different?  The company saying so?   Where is the proof (again, long term double-blind longitudinal studies would be good) that taking silversol won't turn you blue, much less do any good?

I wont even discuss your ad hominem attacks, or claims that I am engaging in them.  The truth hurts, sometimes.  That I invest the time should show a dispassionate reader that I care about what people do that can hurt them.

If you want to use the stuff, they you will use the stuff.  I don't think it's a good idea for the reasons I have said, would not recommend any patient or person I know try to use them, and my opinion is that the only thing its doing is emptying your pocket book and giving your false hope.  But, its your life.  Good luck!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 09:28:35 AM by Flight-ER-Doc »
Yes, I'm a physician.  No, I'm not YOUR physician.  Nothing I say here is medical advice.

Do I treat Glocks like I treat my lawn mowers?  No, I treat them worse.  I treat my defensive weapons like my fire extinguishers and smoke detector - annual maintenance and I expect them to work when needed

Offline Flight-ER-Doc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2260
  • Karma: +57/-7
  • Gender: Male
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #78 on: February 05, 2013, 09:24:36 AM »
That's correct, Doc. Serious, credible studies of CS do not seem to exist. Probably can't get funding.  There have been preliminary studies that demonstrate potential, but I can't find any follow-up studies in Medline or the academic databases other than for topical use and a few studies on CS to minimize contamination in the vaccine-making process.

Conclusion?  Having some simple gear to make colloidal silver solutions (for use as topical antimicrobial and water purification) makes some sense for post-SHTF, especially once the bleach begins to run low.  But CS as a preventative for flu and other disorders seems to be in the realm of belief rather than science.

Well, I agree that it's faith, not science.  I would suggest that big Pharma (an industry that never misses a chance to make money) has investigated CS, and found it wanting....not because they can't make money at it - if Silversol actually worked, one of the big pharma companies would throw a billion dollars at the owners of ABL and buy the patent, and make money selling it legitimately.

Why don't they?

Further, the NIH NCCAM (National Institutes of Health Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicines), a federal black hole for money that has a mission of finding woo that works (and never has) has investigated CS and found:

Quote
Colloidal silver consists of tiny silver particles suspended in liquid. Scientific evidence does not support the use of colloidal silver to treat any disease, and serious, irreversible side effects can result from its use.

Colloidal silver products are often marketed as dietary supplements with various unproven health-related claims. This fact sheet provides a general overview of colloidal silver and suggests sources for additional information.

Colloidal silver consists of tiny silver particles suspended in liquid. Scientific evidence does not support the use of colloidal silver to treat any disease, and serious, irreversible side effects can result from its use.

Colloidal silver products are often marketed as dietary supplements with various unproven health-related claims. This fact sheet provides a general overview of colloidal silver and suggests sources for additional information.

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/silver?nav=gsa


So, the private companies don't touch it, and the federal waste of money that tries to prove nonsense works hasn't found any positive benefits....

And since we're at a place in the cycle that has many people mistrusting "CS" we have companies selling CS under different names.
Yes, I'm a physician.  No, I'm not YOUR physician.  Nothing I say here is medical advice.

Do I treat Glocks like I treat my lawn mowers?  No, I treat them worse.  I treat my defensive weapons like my fire extinguishers and smoke detector - annual maintenance and I expect them to work when needed

Offline ND Martin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
  • Karma: +13/-1
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #79 on: February 05, 2013, 01:18:42 PM »
What a great characterization of NCCAM--"the federal waste of money that tries to prove nonsense works"!  My cynical nature tells me that this agency's unspecified agenda is to provide a mechanism to debunk and discourage alternative medical practice.

Now, technically your argument against CS is fallacious in its own right (ad ignorantiam or perhaps ex silencio; it's often difficult to pigeonhole 'em properly).  In simple terms, just because big pharma doesn't sell it and there are scant studies of its efficacy doesn't prove that it doesn't work.  It's a compelling argument to be sure (and I tend to agree), but from the perspective of pure logic, it's fallacious. 

For those who aren't familiar with the rhetorical realm of logic, here's the Wikipedia entry.

Offline ND Martin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
  • Karma: +13/-1
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #80 on: February 06, 2013, 12:37:23 PM »
Some info on the manufacturer of SilverSol...

A significant piece of the parent company is held by a pink-sheet listed mining company, Clifton Mining (CFTN).  From last year's annual report:
          
The Company owned a 21.0% and 21.3% interest in American Silver, LLC (the “Affiliate”), at December 31, 2011 and 2010, respectively....

American Silver, LLC owns 100% of American Biotech Labs, LLC, ABL Manufacturing, LLC, ABL Medical, LLC and ABL International, LLC. Their products are sold throughout the world in the wound dressing market, the dietary supplement market, the disinfectant market for surface disinfection and dental waterlines, and under the cosmetic act for natural skin care...

American Silver, LLC owns 100% of American Biotech Labs, LLC, ABL Manufacturing, LLC, ABL Medical, LLC and ABL International, LLC. American Biotech Labs, LLC (“ABL”) markets and sells products for the dietary supplement and cosmetic markets, which are distributed through health food stores, health care providers, nutritional supplement distributors and other companies throughout the world. ABL also markets and sells product throughout the U.S. that is approved by the US EPA as an effective broad spectrum disinfectant and bacteriostat against odor-causing bacteria in dental unit water lines. ABL Manufacturing, LLC manufactures products using a patented process. ABL Medical, LLC has recently launched the marketing and selling of approved wound dressing medical device products under FDA Section 510(k).
          

Offline Flight-ER-Doc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2260
  • Karma: +57/-7
  • Gender: Male
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #81 on: February 06, 2013, 08:24:01 PM »
Section 510(k)


What is Substantial Equivalence

A 510(k) requires demonstration of substantial equivalence to another legally U.S. marketed device. Substantial equivalence means that the new device is at least as safe and effective as the predicate.

Quote
A device is substantially equivalent if, in comparison to a predicate it:

    has the same intended use as the predicate; and
    has the same technological characteristics as the predicate;
    or
    has the same intended use as the predicate; and
    has different technological characteristics and the information submitted to FDA;
        does not raise new questions of safety and effectiveness; and
        demonstrates that the device is at least as safe and effective as the legally marketed device.

http://www.fda.gov/medicaldevices/productsandmedicalprocedures/deviceapprovalsandclearances/510kclearances/default.htm


What that means, is that theyre selling something that is not new....
Yes, I'm a physician.  No, I'm not YOUR physician.  Nothing I say here is medical advice.

Do I treat Glocks like I treat my lawn mowers?  No, I treat them worse.  I treat my defensive weapons like my fire extinguishers and smoke detector - annual maintenance and I expect them to work when needed

Offline ND Martin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
  • Karma: +13/-1
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2013, 12:41:01 AM »
The 510(k) reference is for the SilverStat product of one of American Silver's subsidiaries, ABL Medical, LLC.  Use of silver in various forms as a topical antiseptic is well established, no?

Anyway, this is a reference in penny stock financials which always must (if you will pardon this layperson's prescription) be taken with a grain of salt.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 12:45:41 AM by ND Martin »

Offline Haverwilde

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2013, 12:20:57 AM »
Flu vaccines are live vaccines.
Oh boy, I spent the evening with a veterinarian--a delightful lady. We discussed live vaccines, and old dogs, among other things. The vet commented that after a certain age, the live vaccines can cause problems. So that if she sees an older dog who has an unknown history of vaccines, she must give the rabies, but that many times she doesn’t give the parvo, a live vaccine. Because live vaccines can cause blood problems in older dogs.
If mammals have similarities you would think the human medical community might learn something by talking to the animal medical community.
I am ignorant of all things medical, but there is a fascination for me when odd pieces of information begin to make sense on related discussions.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 12:22:48 AM by Haverwilde »
Diabolus fecit, ut id facerem!

Offline Amisheggpicker

  • General Access
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1457
  • Karma: +41/-2
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #84 on: March 07, 2013, 06:07:09 AM »
Hi Haverwilde....before someone jumps down your throat...hahahah...not all of the vaccines are alive....but you made some very good points, and I was going to give an update on my progress today...but will have to wait for break time.....and I'm going to comment on some of your points...
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.

Offline Amisheggpicker

  • General Access
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1457
  • Karma: +41/-2
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #85 on: March 12, 2013, 06:21:47 PM »
hmmm...there appears to be two posts missing from this ....interesting...
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.

Offline Amisheggpicker

  • General Access
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1457
  • Karma: +41/-2
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2013, 11:09:29 AM »
update on my medical progress....I am healthy healthy healthy.....I even have my sugar levels at an acceptable level.
I have and still am surrounded by very sick folks....I have never seen a flu bug like this one....those whom contracted this flu seemed to have a very LONG recovery time....I'm talking several months...
At this point in time, folks are getting pneumonia and bronchitis....also strep throat and 1 case of meningitis....not the bad kind though...
And there are only around 20 of us on this project!
My fellow coworkers are taking notice that I'm not nor have I been sick....no sore throat, not even a cough....a good many of them are asking what I do...

Just so you know, I haven't turned blue or even gray....my complection is nice and healthy looking....

I have a very compromised immune system....I'm one they recommend to get the shot.  My doctor is very very pleased with the results I have had.  I used to get pneumonia EVERY year...and was on oxygen and such....

So if you think I just one of those persons....that just doesn't get sick....then explain why my husband is the same way....neither of us have been sick for about 10 years now...so laugh at us if you want, we are continuing on and enjoying our not being sick!  While neither of us can pinpoint EXACTLY what it is that keeps us from getting sick (I believe its a combination of things)..we know something is working....so we decided to donate our bodies for research....hahahahahaha....just kidding on the donating our bodies.....

With the new health care laws....I think folks NEED to look into alternative methods of helping themselves....under a good doctors direction....before they get trapped in a health situation that they don't know what to do....

I have been extremely busy, but hopefully this weekend I can post what has happened to several people I know concerning their medicine and medical care....it's down right scarey.


« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 11:11:23 AM by Amisheggpicker »
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.

Offline Bill Quick

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5041
  • Karma: +51/-6
  • Gender: Male
    • Daily Pundit
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #87 on: April 12, 2013, 12:03:47 PM »
Egg, I think a lot of folks would be interested in knowing what sort of regimen you are following to keep yourself and your husband healthy.

I know I would.
"You can get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than a kind word alone."  --   Al Capone

Offline Amisheggpicker

  • General Access
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1457
  • Karma: +41/-2
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #88 on: April 12, 2013, 12:27:13 PM »
hahahahahh Bill....you need to go back and look at some former posts....I made a list of things that we used and it stirred a little controversy....oops!  The Good Doc and I disagree on silversol...but that's ok....I view it as giving people a choice...but I can add to the list of some things I didn't mention when I get home in a few hours...

somethings are not medically mainstream....but I need to write an entire post on this...   

wait....if per chance, I don't get to post again....we had a HUGE electrical storm the night before last....it took out our satelight internet service....the tech guy isn't sure if it's on their end or on ours....we have to do a little experimenting when I get home....so if you don't see a post within a day or so....I not back on the big world wide web!  (I'm at work right now)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 12:34:57 PM by Amisheggpicker »
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.

Offline 9thInfDivRvrRat

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #89 on: April 12, 2013, 09:07:36 PM »
Hey, Egg, different opinions or not, I'm sure I speak for most of us here when I say that I'm glad your doin' okay. Will all your skills and knowledge, you're a resource we need. Stay well.

Rob J
Used to be anotherone.

Offline Bill Quick

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5041
  • Karma: +51/-6
  • Gender: Male
    • Daily Pundit
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #90 on: April 12, 2013, 09:10:51 PM »
Ditto that!
"You can get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than a kind word alone."  --   Al Capone

Offline Paul

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 329
  • Karma: +23/-4
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #91 on: April 12, 2013, 10:53:45 PM »
Somewhat on subject, my dad's relatives are or at least were the last I knew, the sole U. S. provider of the fertilized eggs used to produce flu vaccine.  (Apparently only fertilized eggs will do and some years the supply is insufficient for the quantity of vaccine required.) 
I am sure the farm is more efficient now, but back in the fifties, when we drove out for a visit one time, something had gone wrong with the electricity to the barn and they had brought all the baby chicks into the house to keep them warm.  The thermostat was cranked up, the kitchen stove was running full blast and there were several thousand or more baby chicks peeping and pooping there little hearts out all over the downstairs.  My two little sisters were absolutely enthralled and horribly disappointed on our next visit when there were no baby chicks in the house to play with.

Offline Amisheggpicker

  • General Access
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1457
  • Karma: +41/-2
Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #92 on: April 16, 2013, 11:04:05 AM »
My internet is still down at home, and so I can only type short quips because I'm on my break at work...and I only have 2 fifteen minute breaks...hahaha...but the fix it guy, if he shows up is supposed to come out today or tommorrow....but he isn't really that reliable......this is one of the downfalls of living in the country.

I have a whole tablet of notes that I've been making so I can make a health post when I get connected back on....and believe it or not Paul....your post ties right in to something I want to post about.....hahahah!   Hope to see you all in the next day or so...
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.


 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
20 Replies
1646 Views
Last post November 10, 2012, 10:15:03 PM
by Langenator
8 Replies
516 Views
Last post February 07, 2013, 03:35:10 PM
by Langenator
1 Replies
308 Views
Last post March 25, 2013, 03:14:34 AM
by BooMushroom
5 Replies
507 Views
Last post April 06, 2013, 03:21:21 PM
by Langenator
1 Replies
256 Views
Last post June 03, 2014, 10:57:17 PM
by Bill Quick


Your Ad Here - Email for Info
Help Support E-P.com
Even A Buck Makes A Difference!
Or Make Convenient Monthly
Donations By Selecting
A Payment Option
Payment Options