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Author Topic: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?  (Read 3380 times)

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Offline Bill Quick

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2011, 01:22:47 PM »
If you can figure out a way for me to start sprouting steaks and Big Macs from my arms and legs, let me know!  ;D
"You can get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than a kind word alone."  --   Al Capone

Offline Amisheggpicker

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2011, 04:06:13 PM »
But there are some people who do not get the flu...myself being one of them...and I have been exposed many many times...my sister had the Hong Kong flu and was deathly sick...plus I worked with patients whom had the flu...diagnosed by a doctor...I didn't wear a mask, though I did wear gloves...I don't know why some folks get it and others don't...I know I do certain things that I think prevent it...but that's up for guess also...
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.


Offline Amisheggpicker

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2011, 04:40:01 PM »
hahahahh Bill....maybe you should call Monsanto, I think they are more knowledgeable and skilled in helping you than I am!...hahahaha!

Ok so folks....here is something that my family swears by...I haven't had a cold in YEARS...so long, I don't remember when...now before you Nay Say...think of this...what could it hurt you?  If your skeptical, use it as a supplement to what you normally do, ie shots, medicines, etc...it's NOT going to hurt you. (This is the only thing I use, but to each his own.)  I am very fortunate to have a nurse practitioner and a woman's doc, that reccommend the use of herbs and oils...under their close supervision...my woman's doc (he is a man) actually recommended me to take black cohosh for when I had my operation this summer, to alleviate menopausal symptoms...but that's another discussion for the feminine persuasion board.

Especially during the cold and flu season, I saturate my area at work, (desk, cubicle, phone, etc. with drops of Pure lavender oil...I also sprinkle it on my pillow at night...(this will help you sleep, but will also give you funny dreams..hahahah)

Everyone around me at work is sick...coughing, stuffy noses, chest colds...and this particular one seems to hang on forever...when they cough, I dot my nose with a little oil...to help avoid breathing those germs in.

Here is a good site to read...

http://theresaann.hubpages.com/hub/treating-viruses-with-essential-oils

I got started on this, when I was researching and reading about the Spanish Flu epidemic...and found out that only Lavender factory workers had a 1% mortality rate...(I'm sorry, but I can no longer find my source for this)  I'm just saying this interesting piece of info that I stumbled upon is what got me interested in lavender in the first place.


oregano oil is also another good oil to use
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.

Offline Bill Quick

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2011, 08:39:23 PM »
There is quite a bit modern science doesn't know about "folk remedies," mostly because they haven't done the research.  Which is strange, given aspirin and digitalis, among other things.
"You can get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than a kind word alone."  --   Al Capone

Offline Amisheggpicker

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2011, 09:09:47 PM »
research how Tamiflu (used to treat the flu)  is made...folks would be surprised.....one of the key ingredients is  star anise.....
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.

Offline BooMushroom

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2011, 12:49:17 PM »
There is quite a bit modern science doesn't know about "folk remedies," mostly because they haven't done the research.  Which is strange, given aspirin and digitalis, among other things.

Quote
research how Tamiflu (used to treat the flu)  is made...folks would be surprised.....one of the key ingredients is  star anise.....


It seems to me that "folk medicine" remedies ought to be a great jumping off point for a lot of new medicines.  It's just a matter of, y'know,  having millions of dollars to do the needed research and testing.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2011, 01:54:59 PM »
I had the flu shot back in the early 70s - in basic training everyone gets it. I felt crummy for a couple of days, but it may not have been the shot - I'm pretty suggestible!  :D

During the years that I smoked I had colds every year that a couple of times turned into pneumonia. After I quit smoking I had one major, horrible, awful cold & that was it. I occasionally get a sore throat, or sniffles, or a cough - doesn't last more than a couple of days. It's been nearly 20 years since I quit smoking.

In my entire life I've never had the flu. I don't think I've even been around anyone who has. Generally, people who say they had the flu are talking about a tummy bug, not influenza.

My husband used to get the flu shot every year, but he hasn't bothered for the last 3 or 4 years. He's pretty darn healthy, too.

The only vaccination that I get - & urge others to get - is tetanus. That's a nasty, preventable disease.

And that's my opinion, whatever that's worth!  ;D
God bless,
Bonnie
Opportunity Farm
NE WA

"While we have the opportunity, let us do good to all." Galatians 6:10

BonniesBooks.net

Offline Frantic Freddie

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2011, 09:19:18 PM »
There is quite a bit modern science doesn't know about "folk remedies," mostly because they haven't done the research.  Which is strange, given aspirin and digitalis, among other things.

de-lurking

My wife the RPh says the reason for that is that you can't patent a natural substance so the pharm companies have no incentive to work with those substances.Simple economics dictated by patent law.

Natural stuff ends up being the domain of the supplements industry,
aspirin & digitalis aren't "natural",they're drugs,their chemical structure has been altered in some way,that's what makes a drug (I'm paraphasing my wife,I may be off on some things)

There have been studies done with things like milk thistle & it has a few documented cases of it being used to save people who'd eaten poisonous mushrooms,it protects the liver.

it's apparently good for people who drink,so I take some very day ;) :D

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dis....."

General Sedgwick,May 9,1864

"I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."

Offline Bill Quick

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2011, 09:47:28 PM »
Lovastatin is the first of the "statin" anti-cholesterol drugs to hit the market.  It is chemically identical to a substance found in red yeast rice and, in fact, if you take natural red yeast rice, you are probably getting some amount of lovastatin.

Merck (I think) patented lovastatin anyway, and then sued (and won) a case against supplement makers who were selling natural red yeast rice capsules because they contained natural lovastatin.

I've always thought that was very screwed up.  More like a case of the golden rule - them that has the gold, rules.
"You can get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than a kind word alone."  --   Al Capone

Offline Flight-ER-Doc

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2011, 07:41:39 AM »
The pharma companies find compounds (sometimes, but not always by any means) in natural items, that have a beneficial effect.  Then they isolate that compound, find ways to make it, and produce it in standard doses.

Aspirin may have derived from willow bark tea, but what do you do if there isn't any willow tree around?  How much bark do you use?  Aspirin or willow bark tea isn't a benign drug - take too much of it and your blood clotting factors go away, or your heart starts beating too fast, so overdose is a problem.  Taking two tablets isnt a problem, how many cups of tea are too many?

Likewise lovastatin - too much of statins is bad: Liver or kidney damage, or muscle breakdown (rhabdomyolysis) which leads to kidney failure are possibilities. How much red yeast is equal to the standard dose?  And how do you know that you're not overdosing with that uncontrolled capsule of red yeast (some of which have been shown to have heavy metal contamination)?  Or that you're actually GETTING any red yeast at all?  After all, 'food supplements' are not controlled in any way - until and unless they're shown to be dangerous (heavy metal contamination) and ordered off the market - but the companies are fly by night shadow enterprises:  They import poisons and then disappear.



Yes, I'm a physician.  No, I'm not YOUR physician.  Nothing I say here is medical advice.

Do I treat Glocks like I treat my lawn mowers?  No, I treat them worse.  I treat my defensive weapons like my fire extinguishers and smoke detector - annual maintenance and I expect them to work when needed

Offline Amisheggpicker

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2011, 08:12:53 AM »
your good points are why I personally work with my doctors...they know which herbs will interact with other drugs also...plus some medicine, although derived from herbs, can not be produced own your own...

I am happy because I use the best of both worlds!  Sometimes I need that good pain drug the doc gives me for my arthritis in my knee...hahahaha!  For a simple headache (I'm not talking about my husband here...hahah!)  a dab of peppermint oil will do just fine...

To solve the fly by night herb problem, go with a good company that has a reputation....I use Mountain Rose Herbs....they are certified organic..and I have had nothing but good results from them... I believe they are in Oregon....and have a great website...

I guess the bottom line here is this....don't throw out conventional medicine.....and don't throw out herbal medicine....find yourself a good doctor, whom is also educated in herbal medicine and conventional medicine...there are more and more of them now a days...then work with them to find a good health regime suited for YOU personally.

Any GOOD herbalist, should NEVER through out conventional medicine...that's silly...beware of them.  A good herbalist should be able to tell you how much willow bark to use...and how much is too much...

By the way,,,I do have willow bark, but i also have aspirin, alleve, and ibuprofen in my medicine cabinet....

If you are interested in herbal medicine...NOW is the time to learn...not in a crisis situation when there is no doctor around....because then you're going to be faced with the same problems that the Good Doc has presented...
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.

Offline Flight-ER-Doc

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2011, 09:40:59 AM »
The problem I see (regularly) with 'herbal remedies' is that everyone thinks their source of information (book, herbalist, google, whatever) is good. 

The same problem exists, btw, with their physicians.  At least with physicians there is a prescribed course of study and licensing, which cuts down but doesn't minimize the fraudsters like Mercola.  Some people are kind of harmless (my barber in Los Angeles, who was quite proud of his Doctor of Naturopathy mail order degree certificate and his copy of Materia Medica... always 'diagnosing' me with things I didn't have, and usually didn't exist.

As far as strengths of herbal remedies.....exactly how does one determine how much of a product that has highly variable potency due to growth conditions, preparation, storage conditions, and how it is administered?  In a cup of willow bark tea are you getting 325mg (1 standard aspirin tablet) of acetylsalicylic acid, or 3250mg?  If you're taking a cup of it every four hours, that makes a bit of difference.  And something that most herbalists cannot explain is how whatever they're advocating survives in the pH 1 environment of the stomach, or the pH 12 environment of the duodenum, and gets absorbed.

Then there is the problem of plant identification - plants have different names in different parts of the country world, and what people think they're taking isn't what they actually get.  Usually it's just not effective, sometimes it's quite detrimental.  Or the quite earnest but essentially clueless teenager at a 'survivalist' show who was hawking a 'liver cleanse' product that would prevent gallstones.  When I asked what it does for people who have already had their gall bladder removed told me that they could still get gallstones (OK, #anatomyfail, I guess).

For most illnesses, the fact is that most people will recover on their own, without any intervention at all - good or bad.  Most of what medicine does is shorten (hopefully) the time that people are uncomfortable, but all antibiotics do, for example, is slow down the growth of bacteria so the body can heal itself.  That doesn't mean they are useless, sometimes the body can't keep up with the insult to it, but it does explain why most unconventional medicine has the appearance of success:  Tincture of time, as Osler said, is what cures most everything.
Yes, I'm a physician.  No, I'm not YOUR physician.  Nothing I say here is medical advice.

Do I treat Glocks like I treat my lawn mowers?  No, I treat them worse.  I treat my defensive weapons like my fire extinguishers and smoke detector - annual maintenance and I expect them to work when needed

Offline Bonnie

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2011, 04:07:36 PM »
Some people are kind of harmless (my barber in Los Angeles, who was quite proud of his Doctor of Naturopathy mail order degree certificate and his copy of Materia Medica... always 'diagnosing' me with things I didn't have, and usually didn't exist.

I have an hypochondriac aunt who loves to "diagnose" herself & others with the oddest ailments. What's really funny is when she says that whatever the ailment of the week is bothering her & she'll take a vitamin or mineral pill. Seconds later she sighs with relief & says she's feeling so much better! I used to have a friend who spent a ton of money to take a course in homeopathy. It's such malarkey! Another old friend tried to convince me that water could be restructured. What I wondered is if it isn't H2O, what is it? And why does it still LOOK like H2O? 

Even a natural remedy that sounds sensible can be, as Doc said, a problem. Years ago I was diagnosed with a low-functioning thyroid & given (I think) thyroxin or synthroid. Worked fine. Mom talked me into seeing her naturopathic (sp?) doctor for a natural thyroid pill. It worked too - but too well! I was very happy to go back to my well-regulated synthetic thyroid pill.

Doc - this brings up a question I've never got around to asking. My mother was very attached to "natural" cures & one of her favorites was the liver purge. It consisted of fasting for a couple days & then taking a mixture of lemon juice & cream of tartar in water. She did this off & on for years. The irony in this is that she died of cancer of the liver. And she didn't drink alcohol. The liver purge seemed harmless, but could it have affected her liver?
God bless,
Bonnie
Opportunity Farm
NE WA

"While we have the opportunity, let us do good to all." Galatians 6:10

BonniesBooks.net

Offline Flight-ER-Doc

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2011, 04:38:40 PM »
The 'liver purge' probably didn't do any harm to her liver.  

I find it absolutely fascinating that people will attribute magical results to things they spend lots of money on, that have no possible way of working - i.e. in your example, a far too short time for any benefits (if they existed) to actually have occurred.  Or folks that 'can't afford' real medicine, with reliable, proven results....but they can afford things like 'colloidial silver' (now with NANOPARTICLES!), purges, or special secret vitamins that nobody else knows about (but they will happily sell you).  

As far as 'homeopathy', the basic premise of the 'science' is that water has a memory.....and by putting vanishingly small quantities of something in water (vanishingly small on the order of one grain of sand in the entire solar system) it will cause the water to 'remember' and have an effect.

Of course, if this were true, then another truth is that we're all drinking feces...since all water has been exposed to it at one point or another.  Now that could explain some of the coffee I've had over the years, but I think not.


Here is a good description of homeopathy in the emergency department (A&E in England):  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 04:41:25 PM by Flight-ER-Doc »
Yes, I'm a physician.  No, I'm not YOUR physician.  Nothing I say here is medical advice.

Do I treat Glocks like I treat my lawn mowers?  No, I treat them worse.  I treat my defensive weapons like my fire extinguishers and smoke detector - annual maintenance and I expect them to work when needed

Offline Frantic Freddie

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2011, 06:37:41 PM »
your good points are why I personally work with my doctors...

When it comes to drugs (I think Doc'll agree with this) you're better off working with your pharmacist,they can spot drug interactions that a Dr. can miss.
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dis....."

General Sedgwick,May 9,1864

"I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."

Offline Bonnie

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2011, 07:02:56 PM »
Thanks, Doc. Now I can stop wondering every time I see the cream of tartar in my pantry.  :)
God bless,
Bonnie
Opportunity Farm
NE WA

"While we have the opportunity, let us do good to all." Galatians 6:10

BonniesBooks.net

Offline Amisheggpicker

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2011, 08:47:03 PM »
My doctors, whom are all in the same "group" have some kind of computer system that they pull stuff up on...and they also talk directly to the pharmacist...it could be because we live in a rural area....
my husband is on a very controlled drug, that requires strict monitoring...and I have seen his Doctor call the pharmacist many times....which tells me how good she really is....

I had to laugh at your barber flight ER Doc...that is too funny...

I love my doctors...I am not against herbal medicine...under their guidance, and I am not against conventional medicine....I am against quacks......herbal or conventional..hahahah

I believe what is MOST important is that you and your doctor have a good working relationship...my doctors are very very cool and have recommended different herbal medications...my husbands doctor is EXTREMELY educated and she is very very knowledgeable on both types of medication...

By the way folks...if someone tells you that they are a doctor of homeopathy, or have a degree or a certification...these things are NOT recognized in the medical world....I not saying that the person can't help you...I 'm saying that at this point in time, the Medical association does not recognize those types of certifications...and for a good reason...there is not yet a standard set for them...I believe in the future you will see standards set for people to call themselves an herbalist, or a homeopathic doctor,  or a what ever...but that time has not come yet...

I myself use herbs in many different ways....for MINOR things...cuts, burns, bruises, minor coughs, headaches, stomach aches, wart removal, compresses...preventing infections, ringworm, yeast infections  etc........notice I said MINOR...I know when to see a doctor...I see an oncologist..who treats my blood disease with transfusions....I have a good woman's doc, both whom are excellent male doctors...and I see a nurse practitioner for any other ailments....a great woman....

I'm sure our good doc, has seen some pretty pathetic things in the medical world...people can be pretty crazy....and this gives folks whom use herbal medicines responsibly a bad name... 

.in my area, folks have used herbs and such for a long long time  and  we have a good many doctors familiar with herbs and their uses...but they also are bonified doctors....this is the trend of the future....and I welcome it...
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.

Offline Earth Girl

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2011, 08:06:53 AM »
Even when herbs were about the only medicine available, there was a concern about quality and dosage.  Here's a link to a free download of the novel The Harvester by Gene Stratton-Porter written about 100 years ago.  When I read the novel several years ago, I was struck by the theme of the quality of the herbs harvested and care taken with processing the herbs.  Since the author's husband owned several pharmacies, I suspect she took this theme from his experience.

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/349

Offline Amisheggpicker

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2013, 09:31:45 PM »
ok, so here we are 2013....and we are being hit with a nasty flu...one of the worst I have seen in years....some hospitals are setting up "critical care" tents, where patients can come into and be accessed...because they are that busy with sick people.

I again did not get the flu shot...I am a little nervous this year....and here is why.  When I worked in nursing, the facilities had precautions that they took to help curtail the spread of the flu and other germs and virus....House keeping used special cleaning agents to clean with, there were special masks to wear (not the average facial masks, they do diddly to prevent the flu from spreading) and patients were quarantined.

Here is why I am nervous:  At my job, I have been detailed....detailed means you work on a project that is not your normal project.  This Particular detail job is a new one to the company. Because it is new, the company had to find space in our workplace for us to pilot this new project.  Our working conditions are very poor.  Picture being in the attic part of an old department store...That is where we are....sometimes the heat is to hot, many times it doesn't even work...and we have to wait until the repair man can get the heat fixed.  It's very dusty and dirty....but most of all we are jammed packed in the place like sardines.  Some of us are so tightly jammed, that we can brush elbows with one another...the roof sometimes drips water down on our heads...hahahaha..(they are working feverishly to better our conditions, but things take time)

We have one sink at the other end of the building...so when someone sneezes, or coughs, it's very impractical to run and wash their hands...we have clorox cleanups, and lots of hand sanitizer, but I do not like to use them, because I was taught that normally the best thing to use was soap and water for hand washing because you don't want to kill the protective bacteria that your hands naturally have...but when you have germs flying around you need something different.  In the hospital, we used a soap called provon...or something like that...  I don't have that at work...so I'm resorting to the hand sanitizer and the clorox cleanup..

If the clorox cleanups sounds harsh, consider that we are handling around 25,000 manila envelopes that come in everyday in a two week period.  These are coming from all over the United States and are handled by many other people...and who knows what they bring in with them...I could tell you stories about this, but that is another post...hahaha...

Now that the flu has hit our area...people are dropping like flies!  One of my male co-workers and I had a discussion on the flu shot....HE asked me if I had got one...and I told him the truth....and he was a little put out with me for not getting one...and told me I was silly...laughing of course....and I just laughed back....I've been called much worse than that...This man is now very very sick with the flu...

I'm not saying that he got the flu from getting the shot....I'm saying the shot did him no good...when they are manufacturing the shot, they can only GUESS what strain is going to go around...its a hit and miss situation...
I'm nervous, because he and I work practically nose to nose...and if I get sick....he is going to have a lot more to worry about than having had the flu...hahahahah!  just kidding....3 people in our department now are out...and this is just the beginning!

Here is what I am doing to prevent getting sick...we will see if it works...I don't always take this drastic of a measure, but this is a drastic time...

Flight ER Doc....you are going to have a field day with this post! ahahahahah!

1.  I have lavender oil at my desk and with me at all times....I breath this continually when I'm around others whom are coughing and hacking.  During the Spanish Flu pandemic, they discovered that those whom worked in the lavender factories had a 1% mortality rate.  It is believed that the lavender prevents the bug from replicating in your body...

2. I drink star anise tea....(just water boiled with star anise)  star anise is a large part of Tamiflu...

3.  Drinking lots of fluids

4.  3 tsp. of Silversol per day

5.  Vitamin D and C  ....vitamin D is now believed to be even more effective than vitamin c

6.  Trying to get enough sleep, but being on mandatory over time is hindering this.

7.  Fresh air and sunshine and exercise...everyday, at break, we all are going outside to walk as our building has no windows in the entire place.

8.  Healthy eating

9.  Drinking homemade chicken broth made from boiling a whole chicken in water...

Hopefully I will stay well....because I already have a compromised immune system....(working to strengthen it though)  and I PROMISE....I will tell you if I get the flu...
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.

Offline ND Martin

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2013, 12:42:07 PM »
Silversol?  Is that some kind of colloidal silver?  

I've been looking into this as the antimicrobial properties of silver are well established, but I'm not sure of the effectiveness of the colloidal (ionic) form for ingestion.

It's very simple to make, and if it works well then a setup for its manufacture should be part of one's preps.  

Doc?  Any thoughts on colloidal silver?

As for lavender and other essential oils...absolutely yes for a variety of uses.  I'm looking into the most cost effective mechanism for both cold press and steam extraction and will post what I find as the exploration progresses.  Lavender and most herbal remedies are very easy to grow, so it makes perfect sense to be able to process them beyond just making infusions.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 01:23:28 PM by ND Martin »

Offline ND Martin

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2013, 01:08:09 PM »
Amish- Regarding star anise...it's not the essential oil that is the active component, and I doubt that the herb itself would have any real effect on the influenza virus.  Here is a description of its role in the manufacture of Tamiflu:

          
The starting material of the Tamiflu production process, shikimic acid, is extracted from the pods (the part which wraps the seeds, in the form of an octagon) of the star anise. This process is handled by a Roche supplier. Roche uses a specific type of anise grown in four mountain provinces in the south west of China (Guanxi, Sichuan, Yunnan und Guizhou) which provides a much higher purity and yield than the one grown elsewhere. The crop requires specific agro climatic conditions (humid, hot weather and high altitude) available only in the mountainous traditional growing area. 30 kg of anise yields 1 kg of Shikimic Acid.

-- Today, the larger part of the shikimic acid is gained from star anise. However, Roche and its partners are substantially increasing their fermentation capacities over the course of the next years and the ratio will change over time. For the fermentation process, Roche uses a special e-coli bacteria which, when overfed glucose, produces shikimic acid. The bacteria need to be multiplied and grown, and are transferred from small to large and larger fermenters.
          

Also this on shikimic acid from Wikipedia:

          
In the pharmaceutical industry, shikimic acid from the Chinese star anise (Illicium verum) is used as a base material for production of oseltamivir (Tamiflu). Although shikimic acid is present in most autotrophic organisms, it is a biosynthetic intermediate and in general found in very low concentrations. The low isolation yield of shikimic acid from the Chinese star anise is blamed for the 2005 shortage of oseltamivir. Shikimic acid can also be extracted from the seeds of the sweetgum (Liquidambar styraciflua) fruit[2], which is abundant in North America, in yields of around 1.5%. For example, 4 kg of sweetgum seeds is needed for fourteen packages of Tamiflu. By comparison, star anise has been reported to yield 3 to 7% shikimic acid. Biosynthetic pathways in E. coli have recently been enhanced to allow the organism to accumulate enough material to be used commercially.[8][9][10] A 2010 study released by the University of Maine showed that shikimic acid can also be readily harvested from the needles of several varieties of pine tree.[11]
          

As always, the devil is in the details.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 01:17:23 PM by ND Martin »

Offline Amisheggpicker

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2013, 01:24:58 PM »
ahhhhh, I was hoping someone would post that ND Martin....I will comment on your comment...as soon as I get home...I'm at work....I have a different twist on what you posted...love a good debate!
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.

Offline Flight-ER-Doc

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2013, 01:56:59 PM »
I don't think much of colloidial silver.  I've treated patients that have self-medicated with it, with very poor results (delaying real medical treatment to the point of death, developing argyria).  The supposed antiviral properties?  Sorry, didn't see any.

Further, with any colloidial silver preparation there is no way of knowing just how much you actually get (3 teaspoons a day of the water in the jar.......not a real dose).  If you make it yourself, just how much silver is actually in there?  If you buy it, the amount of silver is pretty much zero.

BTW, colloidial silver is just small particles, suspended in a liquid (water).  It is elemental silver, not ionic. 

Silver has antibacterial properties when used topically (so does sugar)....but what happens when silver (in any form) hits the hydrochloric acid in the stomach?  It instantly oxidizes to silver chloride (in other words, turns to tarnish).  The 'colloidial' form turns faster, since the smaller particles have more surface area.  The super-duper nano-colloidial?  Fastest of all.

Yes, I'm a physician.  No, I'm not YOUR physician.  Nothing I say here is medical advice.

Do I treat Glocks like I treat my lawn mowers?  No, I treat them worse.  I treat my defensive weapons like my fire extinguishers and smoke detector - annual maintenance and I expect them to work when needed

Offline Amisheggpicker

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2013, 03:04:09 PM »
hahahah....I knew you would just LOVE my post Flight ER Doc....I'll be home late...but I'll post later...have a good day folks...
Proverbs 21:20  In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,

but a foolish man devours all he has.

Offline Flight-ER-Doc

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Re: How Good Are Those Flu Vaccines?
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2013, 05:26:14 PM »
Great!

Please explain how you know how much silver you actually get in a teaspoon, and what the silver is supposed to do after it oxidizes to silver chloride in the stomach (or tell us what happens in lieu of that fairly energetic chemical reaction, showing the chemical equations that account for it).

Other than that, it's unicorn flatulence and pixy dust..... I don't discount the placebo effect at all, but if something is NOT REPEATABLE across large populations, it's not science and medicine.  As far as people trying different nostrums, as Osler said the tincture of time cures most ailments, in spite of what medicine tries to do.
Yes, I'm a physician.  No, I'm not YOUR physician.  Nothing I say here is medical advice.

Do I treat Glocks like I treat my lawn mowers?  No, I treat them worse.  I treat my defensive weapons like my fire extinguishers and smoke detector - annual maintenance and I expect them to work when needed


 

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