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Author Topic: Cold Fusion a Reality?  (Read 3034 times)

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Offline Bill Quick

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Cold Fusion a Reality?
« on: May 17, 2011, 09:12:52 AM »
This is cold news, almost four months old.  I don't recall hearing much about it.  Anybody know more?

BREAKTHROUGH: MAMA MIA!! TWO ITALIAN SCIENTISTS SUCCESSFULLY PRODUCE ELECTRICITY FROM A COLD FUSION REACTOR - PBT Consulting
Last Friday, January 14, we reported about a press conference held in Bologna, Italy in which Professor Sergio Focardi and Eng. Andrea A. Rossi, both of the University of Bologna, announced to the world that they have a cold fusion device capable of producing more than 10 kilowatts of heat power, while only consuming a fraction of that.  This is the first public demonstration of a nickel-hydrogen fusion reactor capable of producing a few kilowatts of thermal energy.  At its peak, it is capable of generating 15,000 watts with just 400 watts input required.  On Saturday, a forum was opened allowing for questions online from around the world.

This recent public demonstration alone is is a huge development, but what's more, they also claim to be going into production, expecting to have these available for purchase commercially within a year.  This would become the world's first commercially-ready "cold fusion" device.  The first units are supposed to ship in three months, with mass production commencing by the end of 2011.

Licensees are mentioned, with contracts in the USA and in Europe. Mass production should escalate in 2-3 years.  Presently Rossi says they are manufacturing a 1 megawatt plant composed of 125 modules.
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Offline oldguy52

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2011, 09:44:37 AM »
Hmmm..... First I'd heard of it.

Too good to be true?

Seems to me, if this was truly proven, it would be huge news because it would virtually change the way almost everything is done on this planet. Seems like that would generate at least a little excitement. But we hear..... nothing...

Wanna bet somebody is jerking somebody else's chain?

I was just reading an investment news letter the other day talking about some outfit in Canada that was "on the verge" of something similar. Its your big chance to get in on the ground floor they said. You know the hype. Send us your life savings so we can make you rich... er... piss it away for you.
O.G.

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When one finds himself living in interesting times, it is prudent to become as uninteresting as possible.... Me, 2011


Offline Bill Quick

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2011, 10:09:57 AM »
It's been considered a joke for years.  That's why I wanted to find out more about the "demonstration."  But so far, it hasn't been easy.  I'm still looking.

UPDATE:  Here is a minute by minute report from a witness.  It is followed by forty-some comments that raise useful questions and caveats.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 10:14:39 AM by Bill Quick »
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Offline StuckInLAWithZombies

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2011, 10:35:00 AM »
One way or the other, I think fusion isn't far off, Cold or otherwise. Some big names have been throwing money at three different kinds of fusion processes here in the US, and elsewhere in the world. And most of those outfits have published, peer reviewed papers out showing how close they are.

This may be a joke, but fusion isn't.

Offline Flight-ER-Doc

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2011, 11:17:37 AM »
The thing I find really interesting about this claim is that it only took about a month to refute the Pons and Fleishman cold fusion claims back in 1989.  So far I haven't heard anyone doing that to this, but OTOH, I haven't seen them doing any demos, either.

Great if true.  Trust, but verify and all that.
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Do I treat Glocks like I treat my lawn mowers?  No, I treat them worse.  I treat my defensive weapons like my fire extinguishers and smoke detector - annual maintenance and I expect them to work when needed

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2011, 01:54:29 AM »
This is junk "science" at its worst.

It violates all laws of thermodynamics, not to mention the laws of atomic physics.

Forget the fact they don't even know how it works.

...

Real fusion will be an eventual reality. Of that I have no doubt.

Justin

Offline Ken

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2011, 04:36:40 PM »
This is junk "science" at its worst.
It violates all laws of thermodynamics, not to mention the laws of atomic physics.
Forget the fact they don't even know how it works.
Real fusion will be an eventual reality. Of that I have no doubt.

Justin

*Sigh*  While I don't know what "cold fusion" actually is, the "Junk Science" part was on those that were originally "verifying" the results. 

If you check, those Universities that got results, were those that actually bothered to reproduce the experiments, themselves, instead of "reasonable substitutions".  University of Texas (Austin) got zilch, Texas A&M got greater energy output, than input.

We still don't know if it was an oddball chemical reaction, or actual "cold fusion" but we sure aren't going to find out, with our modern academic structure.

And yeah, I do believe that Real Fusion will be reached, but which one are you referring to?  MTF, Fusactors, etc.?

I think the Fusactors have the best chance, and not just because third time a charm (Third time that research on Fusactors began, since the 1950's)  But I do know of five different groups are all working on different approaches, and one or more have a really good chance of hitting the mark. (maybe as soon as 6 months to a year)
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JustinHEMI

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2011, 07:58:10 PM »

We still don't know if it was an oddball chemical reaction, or actual "cold fusion" but we sure aren't going to find out, with our modern academic structure.



Nope, I am pretty sure. So is any scientist worth their salt.

Justin

Offline Bill Quick

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2011, 08:13:21 PM »
Crossposted from Daily Pundit:

If Focardi and Rossi's LENR "cold fusion" actually works as advertised, we're talking penny-per-kWH energy, from base metal hydrides. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so I'm not holding my breath... but if this is real, it's the first real game changer in energy generation since the invention of the nuclear fission pile.

Take a look at what NASA is saying about the underlying Widom-Larsen LENR theory. Their example uses lithium rather than nickel, but it's the same basic idea as the Focardi-Rossi prototype purports to employ. Widom-Larsen describes a technique for generating ultra-low-momentum neutrons, and these neutrons wind up absorbed by metal nuclei extremely infrequently - but more than enough to pay back the cost of generating them, with a good enough multiplier in the early prototypes to get 6-8x energy in as energy out.

The final bullet point in NASA's presentation? Total replacement of fossil fuels for everything except synthetic organic chemistry. If this trick actually works and can be scaled to GWh levels, then that statement is not only not bold, it's an obvious first-order consequence of mass deployment of the technology.

Interesting times...

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Offline Bill Quick

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2011, 08:15:35 PM »
Quote
So is any scientist worth their salt.

The scientists as NASA seem to disagree.
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Offline Flight-ER-Doc

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2011, 08:17:18 PM »
To paraphrase someone (Heinlein? Asimov?) if a young scientist tells you something can be done, he's probably right.  If an old scientist tells you something is impossible, he's probably wrong.

Is this the answer to cold fusion?  I don't know.  But, as a (former) astronautical engineer - who went to school before we really understood how bumblebees flew (it was 'impossible' - their wings couldn't generate enough lift for their mass), I have a deep appreciation for new knowledge.

Yes, I'm a physician.  No, I'm not YOUR physician.  Nothing I say here is medical advice.

Do I treat Glocks like I treat my lawn mowers?  No, I treat them worse.  I treat my defensive weapons like my fire extinguishers and smoke detector - annual maintenance and I expect them to work when needed

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2011, 10:09:02 PM »
The scientists as NASA seem to disagree.

Nope, they don't.

You're missing my point.

My point is, this isn't cold fusion. What NASA is "working" on isn't cold fusion, and they never claimed it was. Nor are they working on the Rossi claims or attempting to verify them. In fact, in the link you posted, "they" made it clear that what they were talking about is NOT cold fusion.

Here is NASA's ACTUAL take on all of this and what they are really "working" on, and they have been doing it since before the experiement in the original post, so it isn't to be taken as confirmation or support for the Rossie experiment;

http://newbusiness.grc.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/millis_anomheat_coldfusion_reve.pdf

They even describe their experiment as a "pet theory."

Cold fusion is nothing but alchemy, in my educated opinion.

My one question for Rossi, where are these production reactors promised in 3 months?

Trust me, I will be the first to eat my words if something real occurs. However, since I receive several of the major reputable physics and nuclear technology journals, and I have yet to read any real peer reviewed support for these experiments... and based on my own research... I don't expect that anything real will come of this as it relates to "cold fusion"..., as usual.

Justin

« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 06:46:35 AM by JustinHEMI »

Offline razorbacker

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2011, 07:20:57 AM »
But, as a (former) astronautical engineer - who went to school before we really understood how bumblebees flew (it was 'impossible' - their wings couldn't generate enough lift for their mass)

My H.S. chem teacher explained that.

"The bumblebee doesn't know that it is impossible."

But then, he wasn't an 'educator'.  He was just a retired air farce guy who got bored and decided to teach.

Offline BooMushroom

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2011, 03:30:59 PM »
I wish one of the guys at the Large Hadron Collider was a cold fusion nut.  He'd wonder what would happen if he slammed a few hydrogen atoms into a big pile of hydrogen using the particle accelerator.  Once you get cold fusion started, it's ought to be self-sustaining, right?  Then it's just a matter of taking a critical mass of it to another power plant.  Think Prometheus.  I know, I'm dreaming here, but still... that's how it starts  :)

Offline Bill Quick

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2011, 05:34:30 PM »
Okay.  We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.

I have to warn you, though.  Appeals to authority don't work all that well with me.  I'm more an empiricist.

At least you're a better sport - you're willing to eat your words if the do come through - than the hordes of scientists throughout history who continued to believe that germs didn't cause disease, the atom couldn't exist, or if it did, it couldn't be usefully cracked, that APG was settled science, and that the only cause of obesity was calories in, calories out.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 05:37:33 PM by Bill Quick »
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JustinHEMI

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2011, 12:47:27 AM »
Okay.  We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.

I have to warn you, though.  Appeals to authority don't work all that well with me.  I'm more an empiricist.

At least you're a better sport - you're willing to eat your words if the do come through - than the hordes of scientists throughout history who continued to believe that germs didn't cause disease, the atom couldn't exist, or if it did, it couldn't be usefully cracked, that APG was settled science, and that the only cause of obesity was calories in, calories out.

A good scientist welcomes new ideas, when presented with properly vetted evidence. I agree with you on your examples of "scientists" not willing to accept new ideas despite an overwhelming mountain of evidence. Personally, I don't consider them scientists. :D

Of course I'd love a limitless, cheap energy supply. I tend to go with "if it is too good to be true..." You get the idea.

Offline North

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2011, 03:13:07 AM »
A couple things from an Engineer;

BooMushroom - if they are slamming things together with a super collider then it aint "cold".  I.E. you might get fusion, but nothing with a super collider is room temp.

None of these folks show the math.  If cold fusion could work, there would be math to back it up.  There is none, and there never has been any.  The language of physics is math and if you can not give me the equations describing what you claim, you are not doing physics.

Yes they laughed at Newton, they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.

Offline Drang

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2011, 04:01:44 AM »
To paraphrase someone (Heinlein? Asimov?) if a young scientist tells you something can be done, he's probably right.  If an old scientist tells you something is impossible, he's probably wrong.
Quote
If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible, he is almost certainly right; but if he says that it is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
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Also:
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Offline Flight-ER-Doc

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2011, 07:26:18 AM »
My H.S. chem teacher explained that.

"The bumblebee doesn't know that it is impossible."

But then, he wasn't an 'educator'.  He was just a retired air farce guy who got bored and decided to teach.

And eventually, we discovered and understood the mechanism -- the bumblebee wings create airflow over it's body - a lifting shape...  It doesn't matter much where you get your airflow from, as long as you get it.

Yes, I'm a physician.  No, I'm not YOUR physician.  Nothing I say here is medical advice.

Do I treat Glocks like I treat my lawn mowers?  No, I treat them worse.  I treat my defensive weapons like my fire extinguishers and smoke detector - annual maintenance and I expect them to work when needed

Offline Bill Quick

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2011, 09:20:02 AM »
Quote
The language of physics is math and if you can not give me the equations describing what you claim, you are not doing physics.
They say that one of the problems is that they can't get a patent because the patent office simply won't believe them, because it is "known" what they are doing is impossible.

They promise that once the process gains a patent, they will release all the details.

In the meantime, they're pushing ahead with the thing because they say it works, as they have been demonstrating.

And if it does work, well, you can smoke the math.  And they are right.  If their backers put into production plants using their techniques that produce several times the energy out than in, the math won't matter, any more than an apple couldn't fall because Newton hadn't put up the math to explain why it did fall.
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JustinHEMI

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2011, 10:39:58 AM »
Sorry to inform you, but that simply isn't how it works these days.

If he has real data that can be verified and vetted by peers, a patent is a non-issue.

He is using the "no patent I am keeping my ball" excuse to hide behind the fact that he has, nothing.

Justin

Offline Bill Quick

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2011, 10:43:39 AM »
Justin, he just demonstrated a working machine.  You say it's a fraud because he won't release his research.

I understand this demo isn't enough for you.

If they scale up and install the damned things, will you still be saying the same thing, if they don't release the research?

"Nevertheless, it moves."
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 10:46:12 AM by Bill Quick »
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Offline Bill Quick

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2011, 10:44:47 AM »
Quote
but that simply isn't how it works these days

That's handwaving.  Be specific.  Exactly how is he protected by releasing his research without a patent?
"You can get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than a kind word alone."  --   Al Capone

JustinHEMI

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2011, 11:06:08 AM »
That's handwaving.  Be specific.  Exactly how is he protected by releasing his research without a patent?

Quite simply, his work would be published in reputable peer reviewed scientific journals. Which, notably, "After their paper was rejected by several peer reviewed scientific journals, it was published in the Journal of Nuclear Physics-- an online journal apparently founded by Rossi and Focardi."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/01/24/italian-scientists-claim-cold-fusion-breakthrough/#ixzz1N0EbmxRK

Not sure what the confusion is. All credit would be granted to them forever, and scientists aren't in the habit of stealing the ideas of their peers that are published and vetting in a journal. Additionally, they do have an Italian patent. Furthermore, have you ever applied for a patent? One needs to provide data on the device and how it functions. Without that data, how can one expect to patent something that makes fantastical claims like theirs does? Why are they afraid of giving the patent authority the required information? It is also likely that if his claims were true, he'd be a sure bet for a Nobel prize.

"Based on this lack of even a theoretical basis for the device’s function, a patent application was rejected. Their credibility isn’t helped by the fact that Rossi apparently has something of a rap sheet, which allegedly includes illegally importing gold and tax fraud."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/01/24/italian-scientists-claim-cold-fusion-breakthrough/#ixzz1N0FMJXky


Like I said, when I see something real, I will gladly take my "I told you so's."

In the mean time, here are some short videos that might help enlighten the reader on the scientific process, which they are not following, hence they are being met with rejection... and understandably so. You simply can not make fantastical claims of cold fusion then say "but we aren't going to tell you how we do it." Oops... they may not know anyway, I forgot.

"Further, they say they can’t account for how the cold fusion is triggered, fostering deep skepticism from others in the scientific community."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/01/24/italian-scientists-claim-cold-fusion-breakthrough/#ixzz1N0GN2slQ

Anyway, I hope you enjoy the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h9XntsSEro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg



« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 11:12:45 AM by JustinHEMI »

Offline Bill Quick

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2011, 11:50:47 AM »
Quote
One needs to provide data on the device and how it functions. Without that data, how can one expect to patent something that makes fantastical claims like theirs does?

And...

Quote
Additionally, they do have an Italian patent.

I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it here.  So the Italian patent cuts no ice with you? 

Further, the patent is only good in Italy.  They aren't worried about credit, I don't think.  They're worried about somebody pirating their process.

An international patent has been filed.  Maybe that's what they are waiting for.
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JustinHEMI

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2011, 11:57:30 AM »
And...

I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it here.  So the Italian patent cuts no ice with you?  

Further, the patent is only good in Italy.  They aren't worried about credit, I don't think.  They're worried about somebody pirating their process.

An international patent has been filed.  Maybe that's what they are waiting for.

No no, I knew there are two different patents in discussion. That was my point of pointing out that they have an Italian patent. The Italian patent has been granted, because they don't require the same rigor as an international patent. That was the point that I wasn't clear on. I apologize.

Like I said, they need to worry about someone pirating their process when following the proper scientific channels.

However, since they are operating in the shadows, they also shouldn't be surprised about being met with rejections and skepticism.

No scientist is going to accept their claims, regardless of how many tin foil rapped devices they demonstrate, until the data is published and peer reviewed, it is that simple. If they really are scientists, this fact would not be foreign to them. If they are scientists with real data, they wouldn't fear using the scientific process.

Justin
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 11:59:25 AM by JustinHEMI »

Offline Bill Quick

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2011, 02:47:08 PM »
Quote
Like I said, they need to worry about someone pirating their process when following the proper scientific channels.

And this is the part I don't get.  Why would they have no worries if they "follow the proper channels?"

I presume you mean releasing their process for public scrutiny without a patent?

Why on earth would you think their process would be protected from pirating?

Microsoft can't even keep the Chinese government from cranking out ten zillion dupes of their much-protected software.

What would stop anybody from firing up an unpatented process?
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JustinHEMI

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2011, 03:56:23 PM »
And this is the part I don't get.  Why would they have no worries if they "follow the proper channels?"

I presume you mean releasing their process for public scrutiny without a patent?

Why on earth would you think their process would be protected from pirating?

Microsoft can't even keep the Chinese government from cranking out ten zillion dupes of their much-protected software.

What would stop anybody from firing up an unpatented process?

We are at the point where you are going to have to study up on the scientific method and I have presented my position. If he is claiming "cold fusion," then it deserves to under go the rigorous trial of the scientific method, just like anything else on this planet. I apologize if my skepticism is bothersome.

That said, I will reiterate one more time to summarize my position, that if the proper data is presented, I will give it its fair trial and due recognition. Until then, it is my opinion that it is nothing more than snake oil. Be that as it may, I would LOVE for this to be real. Who wouldn't? Besides changing the would, it would certainly change the course of my doctoral dissertation since it would be new physics and I would have to scrap all of my work on the weak nuclear force.

Now we wait and see.

Justin
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 04:04:32 PM by JustinHEMI »

Offline Bill Quick

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2011, 04:52:41 PM »
Quote
We are at the point where you are going to have to study up on the scientific method
I'm sorry, but that sort of condescension is entirely uncalled for.  I am perfectly familiar with the scientific method.  What you seem unfamiliar with is protections for intellectual property, about which, I suspect, as a working, published author and screenwriter, I know a great deal more about than you do.

Further, you dodged my question.  After stating several times that they had nothing to fear from piracy if they did something which you refuse to clearly outline - and by the way, the "scientific method" has absolutely nothing to do with piracy, patents, or protections of intellectual property - you end up not not only not responding to legitimate requests for clarifications about fuzzy and unsupported statements you've made, but you also sneer at me.

UPDATE: Just to clarify:  There are two issues in this discussion.

1.  The legitimacy of the Foucard-Rossi cold fusion "reactor."

2.  How "submitting their research to scientific scrutiny" protects them from piracy.

I believe the first of these has reached a conclusion:  Wait and see.  If they do roll out a working reactor,  whether they publish or not, "nevertheless, it moves," and your skepticism may have been warranted, but turned out to be in error.

As to the second, I don't believe it has been anywhere near resolved, and I feel it is important, because you base your skepticism on their refusal to go public within the scientific community, and they say they refuse to do so until they have strong patent protection, for which they have applied.  You say the Italian patent, which they have received, requires "less rigorous" support, and it is a matter of legal record that it only applies to Italy, and offers no protections elsewhere.  So their stated position regarding holding off on release until they obtain strong patent protection makes sense to me.  

This second issue, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with the first issue, that is, whether the thing actually works or not, and how it works.  It deals purely with the protection of their intellectual property, which I think is a perfectly legitimate concern on their part.

If you would actually care to address the second without condescension, I'd be happy to hear your reasoning.

In short, your skepticism isn't bothersome, but your attitude is becoming greatly so.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 05:04:37 PM by Bill Quick »
"You can get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than a kind word alone."  --   Al Capone

JustinHEMI

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2011, 05:09:35 PM »
Attitude? You sir are detecting attitude where there is none. I am not being condescending at all. You have clearly shown a lack of understanding of the patenting process and scientific method, and I have neither the time nor desire to educate you on either. That isn't me being condescending and it isn't my fault, to suggest otherwise is nothing but a straw man, and I take issue with you trying to bully me into your position. Like I said, you need to study up and you will understand and that isn't meant to be insulting. I have nothing to left to contribute. Take it as you will.

Good luck and good day.

Justin

« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 05:11:14 PM by JustinHEMI »

Offline Bill Quick

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Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2011, 05:57:59 PM »
Justin, you just dodged the question again.  And your condescending attitude has worsened.

Congratulations!

You have just earned the dubious honor of being the first member whose registration I have revoked.

We really don't need your sort of attitude around here.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 06:30:31 PM by Bill Quick »
"You can get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than a kind word alone."  --   Al Capone

JustinHEMI

  • Guest
Re: Cold Fusion a Reality?
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2011, 07:39:26 PM »
Well there is a childish response, which I guess is to be expected when one has nothing else except ad hominem attacks left. I didn't realize that the only position allowed on this forum was one that only agreed with your way of thinking. Had I known that, I wouldn't have wasted my time registering. And here I thought it was supposed to be better than that other place. I was wrong.

Never the less, you've convinced me...

Believing that the only thing holding up the most ground breaking, revolutionary new physics is a patent issue makes much better sense than believing it to be a lack of creditable data. I should have seen it all along.

Justin

PS It is a real shame you can't see past your own prejudice and be open to new ways of thinking. Remove my registration as you will, I couldn't care less at this point. I certainly don't want to be a part of a community that subscribes to one way of thinking and is at the mercy of a dictatorial administrator who wields his power against those of differing views and isn't willing to work out those differences. You imply disparity where there is none.

NOTHING I said was condescending. It is YOUR problem you take it that way. That is your character fault, not mine. I freely admit that I can be snarky at times, but condescending, never.

Peace, and happy prepping.

PPS If you need help figuring out how to rob me of my registration, feel free to ask. I know SMF very well.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 07:46:02 PM by JustinHEMI »


 

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